I've been "quiet" lately.
Rock Waterman is doing such an outstanding job at Pure Mormonism, there's really no way I can improve on that.
Tim Malone's contribution at Latter-day Commentary – recently helping to extrapolate the doctrine, limitations and opportunities of true "priesthood" -- is marvelous.
Daymon Smith's slog about the cultural history of the Book of Mormon in particular (and the LDS Church, in general) -- while tedious to read in the extreme -- is revealing and re-orienting. (And some of what he writes is very funny!)
Denver Snuffer? That guy has the "pulse" of the times...and seems to comment on the very things I need to hear. The Holy Ghost is with him.
What more can I say?
I was powerfully driven to make the public statements I made and to take the stands that I took -- before they excommunicated me. Now I'm done. I've said my piece. Now I'm simply waiting on the Lord. (I may have to wait a long time.)
Truth is, I've spent nearly my entire life witnessing for Christ in this Church (very imperfectly). Now I can't even do that -- except by example (which, ironically, is how my patriarchal blessing directed me to "witness"). I wish I were a better example of that. But, hey, I did my best! (It was a lot harder to do than I had imagined it would be when I first started out. A lot harder!)
Now the only other real LDS friend I have - who routinely visits me at my house, invites me to his house, and spends time with me and my family (when he's not busy being an LDS bishop) -- is the only other person I know (locally) who has had experiences with Jesus similar to my own. He, too, has seen Him, even as I have seen Him. (Does that count for anything?)
In the end, it's not just what we know, but what we do with what we know that really matters.
If you come unto Christ, nothing else matters. If you don't come unto Christ, nothing else matters.
Try telling that to the "follow the prophet" crowd in the LDS Church. I'm afraid that many of them, like those who followed Moses into the wilderness, would rather have Thomas "stand in" for God -- rather than do what the Lord has asked each of us to do: that is, to come unto Him.
And be saved.
"Try telling to .... I'm afraid that many of them... would rather... rather than...."
ReplyDeleteHave you not yet discerned the true meaning of Nibley's "Nevers"? When will you cease to look at others for errors, foibles, sins, foolishness, and transgressions, and instead correct the ones you possess, living up to the light and knowledge you possess? When will you discern the spirit of the accuser, and cease taking it to be of God because it gratifies your pride (Helaman 13:27)?
Log,
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of this post was to acknowledge "commonality", not find fault (or accuse). I am but a Lego in an ocean of Legos. Apparently, I find fellowship -- and "fit in" -- with Rock, Tim, Daymon, Denver, you, JR, Jeref and others. They (you) are now my "church". (Though, I must confess, I still seek for even better company!)
My ward (pardon the misnomer) is simply swamped with testimonies -- in every meeting, in every talk! -- of the propriety of "following the prophet" at all costs (and, apparently, despite all contradictions to logic, historical evidence, or personal experience); of being "humble" (universally defined as "following the prophet") and of receiving and accessing "priesthood power" (which, coincidentally, is also said to be facilitated only by "following the prophet"!).
I could have written (again) a lengthy piece on why we don't do that. But why? Others have done it far better. Those who are satisfied with the results of following others -- of waiting on the Brethren rather than on the Lord, of drinking downstream, of being spoon fed with left overs, of hearing descriptions of the symphony rather than experiencing the symphony for themselves -- will continue to do so. I am (finally!) content to let them. (I will not coerce!) I've said my piece. I wish I could have said it better! -- and clearer! -- but that was what I had to give. And they "got" it...and gave me back again what they thought I deserved. I ought not aspire for more. I did my best (imperfect as it was).
Maybe I can do better from here on out.
The Spirit (or spirit) that possessed me and the word given to me for me to follow led me to where I am today. My post above recognizes (and commends) the new fellowship I enjoy with others (like yourself), not (just) condemns those who see things differently than I do and now follow a different path.
My post "reminds" me (in case I get "lonely") whence salvation lies. Only in Christ. Only in the Tree of Life (and the fruit thereof, which is most precious and delicious above all else). There is value in following a prophet -- as Nephi responded to Lehi's call and came and partook of the Tree of Life himself -- if one comes unto Christ. But only if. Otherwise, not so much. All other roads lead elsewhere.
You may disagree with me (and I won't contend with you!) but, like many others have said, I say "I didn't leave the Church. The Church left me." I stayed on the path, "held to the rod" in my grasp, and focused on the Tree in my view. Lehi's vision didn't extol the virtues of following a crowd or any particular man. Lehi didn't describe himself as one "worthy" to be noticed, standing nearest the Tree, saying to all "Come, follow me!". He found and tasted for himself, then called to his family and shared with his friends (1 Nephi 1:16, 18), apparently motivated by love for them (not by pride in himself). That was about it. And that's about all I can do.
I introduced Nibley's "nevers" to my wife last night. They're hard (for me) to remember and even harder (for me) to do. Never accuse, aspire, contend, or coerce.
Your "reminder" (accusation?) was ironic, but nonetheless appreciated.
Note: My comment is so long that I have to break it up into two posts.
ReplyDeleteWill
Yes, you have been quiet. I look everyday for a post and was happy to see a new one.
First of all... where can I find Nibley’s “Nevers?”
Having read the comments, I would like to add my viewpoint.
Log... Your post and the tone of your post is in a manner that reflects just what you are trying to correct. Perhaps a more gentle, kind and persuasive approach may have been more compelling.
Where is there safe place to go where I can express my grievances... express my sorrows, and rant a bit until I can get my head on straight and come to reason? Sometimes I can’t sort things out in my head and I need to be able to put my thoughts on a “table of words” in front of me so I can see things outside of my head. When others kindly correct or give me a different way to look at things, I am truly grateful.
If the blogs, who are attracting like minded people, cannot feel safe in expressing their point of view without with out being chastised for breaking the “Nevers rules” where do they go? Don’t mistake what I have said as an excuse for being uncivil or vicious... but can we support each other in our journey for enlightenment, even when one is throwing a temper tantrum? Enough said.
Log is my friend. He "persuades" me be telling the truth. I don't require him to be gentle. Direct is fine. And I love him all the more for it. (He grounds himself in the scriptures and that's why he's seldom wrong. You can’t go far astray when you live by every word of God.)
DeleteI think this discussion may even inspire another post!
Will... I’m one of the “Follow The Prophet” crowd... or at least I use to be. Questions frequently came from my mouth like, “What do the Brethren say about this...or that?” “What is the standing of the “Church” on this or that subject?” “What does the Prophet say about this or that?”
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Snuffer and reading your blog and the very blogs you mention, I came to realize I had my order upside down. I was going to the “Church” to answer my questions rather going to the Lord, in faith first, in addition to council from the Prophet. I now understand that when I read the Ensign or hear conference talks I can seek confirmation through the Spirit as to the accuracy of what they are saying.
You would think I should have already known this... but I was so caught up in the “Follow The Prophet” club I could not see. My glasses were dark.
The “Follow The Prophet” notion made me lazy and content with milk. It kept me from digging into the scriptures and serious study etc. and prayerfully asking the Lord for counsel and confirmation first.
I love the the Brethren and have been inspired to do better in my life. They are good men who have a huge responsibility to guide and direct Church affairs in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord. I wouldn’t change places with them for all the rice in China.
Do I believe they are perfect and could not lead us astray? No. The responsibility is mine to live worthy and close enough to the spirit know if they are. I like what Brigham Young said:
“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”
- Brigham Young, (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 135.)
Like you said, “There is value in following the prophet,” and I am willing to do so, but not at all costs. The Lord now comes first in the order of things.
Will, I can’t imagine what is would be like to be in your shoes right now. How does one undo “Membership” thinking? Be patient with those around you who are avoiding you. They may be confused as to what to say and how to react. This whole issue is new territory.
For me... your experience and the experience of others who have not voluntarily left the membership has taught me a great lesson of how important it is to embrace and support them.
In fact... (never thought I would say this) I’m now grateful to those who were kind and embraced my x-husband who was excommunicated for adultery... when I could not. In fact, I’m going to tell them so. This is a HUGE step for me in my healing.
Don’t stay a way so long. Love your posts.
It's a lot harder to go to the Lord for the answers (rather than go to Church...or to Moses, etc). But would you rather have "answers"? Or the right answers? (Fortunately, true prophets seldom deceive...or go astray. But they can! And do!)
DeleteHow can you know you have the right answers? Because they come from the Church? How do you know the Church's answers (meaning "of the Brethren" or "from the prophet") are right?
Is it not by the Holy Ghost?
Then if the Holy Ghost testifies of all truth and you have the Holy Ghost bearing witness to you of the truth, why do you need the "middle man" (or men)? Is not the gift of the Holy Ghost the privilege to come unto God directly -- or to have God inside you yourself? How can you do any better than that?
How is this gift bestowed? By man? Or by God? (Peter performed the ordinance. God bestowed His Spirit.) In the absence of HIs Spirit, what do you have?
Nothing.
Granted, the path is narrow and the gate is strait. One ought to purify one's self when coming before the Lord (or striving to receive His Spirit). That's why the children of Israel shrank at the thought. They saw themselves as weak, filthy, carnal and slavish..and refused to change. We ought to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling", considering the privilege it is to come before God (or receive His Spirit).
Then do it.
Who are those who profess His name, yet claim "He maketh no such thing known unto us"? They are infidels, unbelievers, slackers and faithless. They are the "weak in the faith", for which prophets and nursemaids are given to bring us unto Christ.
Then, once we are brought unto Christ, it then behooves the intermediary to get out of the way!
"The Church" was never intended by God to get in the way of those seeking to come unto Christ.
I am not the way. Denver Snuffer is not the way. Thomas S. Monson is not the way. We all know who The Way is!
We must find Him. If we don't, we won't be any better off than Laman or Lemuel, oblivious to The Way, constantly rebelling, constantly having to be told what to do by men, because they are carnally minded.
It's scary to come unto Christ. Little children do it easily, however. It's not so much about seeing angels and having visions. It's about doing all that little children do -- investigate and explore, enjoy, obey, believe...and ask for more.
It takes humility...acknowledging that one "doesn't have it" or "can't do it" or "hasn't gotten it". (If one's "cup" is already full, why would one ask for more?) Little children say "More please!" all the time! They say "I need your help".
The proud and content never mouth those words. Rather, they boast of what they have.
Thank you for sharing your excellent comments!
I, too, appreciate what you have to say, always.
ReplyDeleteI always look for new posts from you--
used to be LDSDPer on PM--
in transition--
read all those blogs you mention; well, Rock, Tim, Denver--
I'm sorry this happened to you, but Father does find a way to refine those of *us* who know Jesus. It's just not easy 'til the end, at all--
as you, too well, have learned. Just gets harder in many ways--
I do pray for Jesus to come. I'm the one that shouts "Book of Mormon"!--
*laughing at myself*
oh, and Nana, forgiveness takes time--
ReplyDeletebe gentle with yourself. Being able to appreciate others would be healing, though, I would think--
God bless you.
same person as directly above--
Nana, I was part of that crowd, too--
ReplyDeleteWill, I want to add that Smith's* book(s) on the cultural history of the Book of Mormon have been really a steep learning curve for us (husband and me), but we have really enjoyed that curve. I just hope *they* don't come after him now.
I'm not going to put his full name on here; he's not related to any of the prominent ones--
I was focusing intensely on the Book of Mormon (as was my husband) before we read Smith's books--
but now I want it undiluted--
Will,
ReplyDeleteI read your essay, and I didn't think you were doing any of those things--
(that Nibley warned about)--
I must have a different set of eyes--
I think sometimes *we* would go insane if we couldn't express how *we* feel around people who just don't share with us--
I know that in my family, we have to. We have a handful of family members (in one place far from us and also not in the IW--)--
we have to talk to now and again just to remain somewhat stable. Yes, prayer is important, always--
but sometimes we need someone with 'skin'--
otherwise we wouldn't be here--
to learn how to treat and be treated by people with 'skin'.
Actually, this is the post that precipitated this comment at Tim's blog.
ReplyDeletehttp://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/06/27/dont-blame-me-i-just-report-the-news/#comment-27252